Mastering the Art of Copywriting

Defne Gencler [00:00:00]:
Because if you’re talking to everybody, you’re talking to nobody. So it’s, you know, what you put on your website. If you think I wanna appeal to a mass audience, that’s great. But then are you actually gonna write in a way that’s emotionally resonating with people.

Jeffro [00:00:23]:
Welcome back to another exciting episode of Digital Dominance. This episode will make your dreams come true. Okay. Probably not. Unless your dreams involve writing Better marketing copy. I started with that sentence because the structure of that phrase is something we see all over the place, and that’s because it kinda works. In today’s digital economy, attention comes at a premium. There’s more competition for eyes and ears than ever before, so in order to stand out, you need to be different.

Jeffro [00:00:50]:
Some people do this with big promises about making your dreams come true. Other promises are more practical but compelling nonetheless. And if you don’t have a compelling message, then you get ignored. Plain and simple. That’s why today, I’ve invited my friend, Daphne Gensler, on the show to talk with us about copywriting and connecting with your audience. Daphne comes from multiple backgrounds. She’s Turkish, Dutch, and American. And while that presented challenges switching between cultures, it is what ultimately gave her the superpower of the written word.

Jeffro [00:01:19]:
Bruce Lee has a quote about water taking the form of the vessel it’s in, a cup or a bottle, And Daphne has mastered the art of being like water when it comes to writing copy for clients. She had a write up in Business Insider, her 1st year as a freelance copywriter. She’s worked with Google, Viacom, Fortune Magazine. She’s been at this for over 8 years, and she founded her own copywriting business called Laurel Leaf. I’ve personally worked with her on multiple website projects, and I can’t speak highly enough of the work she and her team have done. So please help me welcome Daphne Gensler. Welcome to the show, Daphne.

Defne Gencler [00:01:51]:
Hey, Jefro. What’s going on? Happy of the year.

Jeffro [00:01:54]:
Yeah. Thanks for joining us. Now, you know, in my opinion, messaging and copywriting is one of the most important topics that we can cover on this show. Everyone is desperately trying to stand out in the sea of sameness. And if you do manage to get some visitors to your website, then you’re pulling out your hair wondering why your phone isn’t ringing. So let’s start there. In your experience, Daphne, what is missing when you look at the average small business owner’s website?

Defne Gencler [00:02:20]:
Yeah. I think what I see happen a lot is, You know? The marketing teams or, you know, whatever team is investing in, the creation and build of the of this new website will put so many resources into the design and development, and rightly so, you want to build a website that looks good, that functions well, that, you know, does what it’s supposed to do. But then what happens is the copy tends to be a bit of an afterthought. So when the copy is an afterthought of limited budgets, limited time constraints. What happens is that, yeah, then, like you said, people will go to the site, but then it doesn’t actually appeal to them. The copy isn’t clear as to what the product does. So I think that’s a major problem that, you know, a lot of businesses face is that just copy starts as an afterthought. So that’s just the very beginning, the tip of the iceberg, I think, of what we, you know, might talk about here.

Jeffro [00:03:16]:
Yeah. And I think a lot of people, for whatever reason, you start by picking a template or a theme. Right? And so you’re like, oh, I like the look of this one. And then like you said, it’s an afterthought to do the copy, and you just pick stuff to plug into the space that the template had. Maybe you should have written 2 paragraphs on this one thing, but you only wrote 1 line because that’s all the room you had in the template. And so, obviously, that’s a problem, and your website isn’t gonna be as compelling because of that.

Defne Gencler [00:03:40]:
Yeah. I think it starts with who is it that you wanna talk to? Who’s going to be actually using this product, and who wants to use this product. So making sure that there’s that sort of two way street because an ideal client isn’t just anybody. It’s the client that also wants to work with you, the customer that is the perfect fit for the solution that you have to offer, and making sure that you go to great lengths to actually define and identify who these people are, whether it’s people that have been using your product or whether it’s people that express interest in this. And then going from there also, you know, who’s the ideal client for your business so that your business will thrive as well. So not just that you’re sort of lowballing yourself, but making sure that this is actually sustainable for your business. So I think that’s the first step. And then from there making sure that, you know, you’re actually writing for them and not for your marketing director or for your CEO, actually making sure that you address them and start by understanding their needs.

Jeffro [00:04:47]:
But, definitely, I can help anybody. Why should I just talk to some people?

Defne Gencler [00:04:52]:
Because if you’re talking to everybody, you’re talking to nobody. So it’s you know? What you put on your website, if you think I wanna appeal to a mass audience, that’s great. But then are you actually gonna write in a way that’s emotionally resonating with people. You know? Because when it comes to sparking emotions that then cause someone to act, you need to be really specific. And almost right in a way that feels like when they’re reading it, they’re like, this person was in my head. And if you think that you can help everyone, then, Yeah. You you’re not gonna write for 1 person, and the copy you write is gonna be diluted, generic, And no one’s really gonna feel like they connect to it that much.

Jeffro [00:05:40]:
Yeah. No. I like that. And, obviously, we’re joking a little bit, but this is a big problem. I think a lot of people get stuck on this, and it it is hard to focus in on something, especially when you don’t know what metrics you’re looking at. So, you mentioned a couple, like, it was just somebody that wants to work with you. You know? Maybe they they have a budget or they have x number of employees. And because maybe you’ve noticed when you work with certain people that are solopreneurs, it doesn’t work out or whatever the things are, you gotta think back and start identifying, okay, if I got to pick Which customers I wanna work with, which ones would I pick? And that might be a good starting point.

Defne Gencler [00:06:19]:
Exactly. Like, with my company, Laurel Leaf, you know, There are clients out there. You know? We came out around the same time that chat GPT kit came out, and tons of people have been using that. All is fair for that. Those are not my ideal clients. So I also have to accept, you know, that someone Who’s not looking for my solution? It’s obviously not gonna be my ideal client. So why even bother competing with another solution that’s right for that client?

Jeffro [00:06:47]:
I was gonna ask you, a little bit later your opinion on chat GPT as a copywriter. What what do you think about that?

Defne Gencler [00:06:55]:
I was expecting that question. I mean, it’s yeah. Where do I begin? I think we can do a whole podcast episode on chat GPT. Right? It’s yeah.

Jeffro [00:07:07]:
So maybe rather than talking about what chat GPT can do, maybe If a a business owner is considering using Chat GPT for their website versus hiring a copywriter, what should they be looking out for? And, you know, what could what’s the give and take there?

Defne Gencler [00:07:22]:
Do you mean, like, why like, what should they look for in a copywriter if they wanna work with a copywriter and something to be mindful of of chat. Can you just, yeah, repeat the question?

Jeffro [00:07:35]:
Yeah. If they’re trying to do a new website and they just wanna save their budget and say, hey. You know what? I’ll just use Chat GPT to write the copy. That should be way cheaper. Right? What would you say to them?

Defne Gencler [00:07:48]:
Yeah. So you can take that route, but you still need someone who knows how to write copy for a digital audience to create and to take that copy that chat GPT rights And actually tweak it and make sure it’s relevant to your customer and it’s specific like we discussed in, you know, couple minutes ago. You still need to know how copywriting works because just plugging in any words that chat GPT produces, You need to know the psychology behind users. So you still need someone there to safeguard that copy to be that sort of, like, editing checkpoint because otherwise, again, it’s just it’s words with no real meaning, emotion, anything behind it. And I’ve seen what chat GPT can do. Like, it’s okay. You know? It’s decent. A lot of the times, it still needs just a little bit of that human touch.

Defne Gencler [00:08:52]:
So I think it can get you to 20, 30%. But at the end of the day, if you wanna save your budget and just use Chat GPT and kind of blindly copy paste, you’re probably gonna be paying a lot more down the line.

Jeffro [00:09:08]:
Right. Or there’s the opportunity cost. Right? If your conversions won’t be as high, if you’re using the chat t p t copy versus someone who’s actually gone through the questions about your target customer, understands them, they are human, so they know how to speak to those emotions and things, which obviously Chat GPT can’t do. But at the same time, you know, budget is a real concern. So in my mind, a website is never done. And if you have to start with chat gpt, okay, so be it. But just know that once you can afford it, it would behoove you to hire A trained copywriter to improve that messaging on your website. So one other thing I’ll mention, you know, we we’ve talked about identifying your target Customer, that can make a lot of other things come into focus as well beyond just the copy itself.

Jeffro [00:09:53]:
You know? For example, once you know your customer, you can look at your current offer, And it might be suddenly painfully obvious why that offer will never convert for that prospect, then you can change it. Have you been in a situation like that where you had to point that out to a client?

Defne Gencler [00:10:08]:
So far, I think because we when we work with our clients, we already start by identifying their target customer from the very up. And then we work on the offer with them. So Got it. There haven’t been that many instances where the offer didn’t match up. I think in some parts, we have encountered circumstances or situations where a client has just started an ad campaign, right, for, like, a fractional CTO service, and they’re not happy with their conversion. So you kind of have to also think about This product isn’t just a water bottle. Someone’s not gonna purchase it on the spot. They’re gonna have to think about it a little bit longer.

Defne Gencler [00:10:51]:
This isn’t a purchasing decision that’s made overnight. So sometimes, I think also being mindful of the sales cycles for what it is you’re trying to sell, and understanding that your offer, while good, just takes a little bit longer for someone to say, hey. I’m gonna sign up for this right now. So We’ve had instances where they’re judging, you know, the performance of their website or landing page through the wrong lens, not so much as it has been with the wrong offer because we sort of hold their hand from the very beginning in terms of making sure that the offer we write for them does match their cost.

Jeffro [00:11:28]:
Okay. So, yeah, you’re thinking about that along the way. I was also just thinking, sometimes as owners, we get so, too close to it. Right? We get so caught up on, like, no. No. This is how I need to bundle this or offer it or whatever. This is the price it has to be, And it might not make sense to hold on to that, especially in light of this other information. Right? If you know who you’re talking to, it doesn’t if there’s a disconnect, you really should, address that.

Jeffro [00:11:53]:
Yeah. So here here’s another question. Do you have a favorite messaging transformation You’ve written for a client, you know, where the contrast between the original text and the new messaging was so spot on that you were just super stoked every time you looked at it.

Defne Gencler [00:12:10]:
Yeah. I actually worked on a messaging and tone of voice guide with one of our clients called Get Your Guide. They’re sort of like an online travel agency, and they connect people who wanna have experiences, with, you know, some of the local businesses or larger businesses that offer that, so more experience based travel. And then they also help, businesses with an online platform to get more bookings, etcetera. But we worked on a b to b, tone of voice guide for them and basically transformed, you know, a lot of their blog copy and content. Just the way that they spoke to those clients used to be in a very sort of direct formal way. But we created new guidelines, and then what we created as a result of that was something that was just way more Yeah. It felt like there was way more direction and purpose to what they were saying.

Defne Gencler [00:13:11]:
So that was something that was a lot of fun to work on.

Jeffro [00:13:14]:
Nice. And what are some other common mistakes that small businesses make when it comes to positioning their company?

Defne Gencler [00:13:23]:
Yeah. A lot a lot of mistakes. Right? I see a lot of jargon. So, again, just Like you said, sometimes we get so close to the business that you need to just step away, because your customer might not be speaking that language. You might be referring to your solution as one thing, but then the language that they use for that is something entirely different. And just because you had one difference in the word. All of a sudden, you miss this entire audience, because you never took a step outside of it. So that’s why, you know, getting a copywriter involved or a third party involved to give you that sort of 3rd look, that third perspective, might help you uncover that you’ve, yeah, been using corporate jargon.

Defne Gencler [00:14:12]:
And then another thing I see is also People try to stay away from jargon because they’re like, no. We’re told no jargon whatsoever. Sometimes your customer might speak in jargon. So in that case, Use the jargon. You know? Have at it. Have fun. So that’s one thing. I think also sticking to I’m never a fan of, like, copywriting dogma.

Defne Gencler [00:14:34]:
I think everything is nuanced because people are nuanced. So I’ve never been the type to say, like, you know, You have to do this or that or a or b at all times because there might be instances where it’s not the case. So I think getting too stuck on rules and too stuck on shoulds, I think, is also a mistake. Just being super nuanced in your approach, I think, is the best way to go. Yeah. I mean, if you want me to keep going?

Jeffro [00:15:05]:
No. That that’s good. And I like that you touched on the fact that, you know, Clients and prospects could be using different terminology than you are using yourself. And this is actually a huge factor in SEO. Right? If you don’t do any research to figure out what people are typing into Google, then you’re gonna be missing all those people who are looking for your services. They just have a slightly different phrase for it. And so that can be an important part of what you do and, making sure that you are able to be found. There was, 1 client, I have worked with.

Jeffro [00:15:36]:
He had he did 3 d printing and all sorts of stuff related to it. But on his website, he called himself that you’re a 3 d printing concierge. Like, that was his thing, and he had in the title tag and heading 1. I’m like, I’m pretty sure nobody’s typing that into Google. So Here’s some other suggestions of what people are actually looking for. And, like, you can use that, but there are places where you could mention it and make sure that that’s not a distraction. Right? Because they might think, oh, I’m in the wrong place. I don’t wanna hire a fancy concierge.

Jeffro [00:16:03]:
I just need you to fix this x y z, whatever. So that is an important piece of it. So thanks for mentioning that.

Defne Gencler [00:16:09]:
Yeah. No. A 100%. They get yeah. You can get really stuck in the vision that you have for your business. And while it’s great to have a vision and be a visionary thinker. You have to meet people in the middle. So what do you want your brand to be versus what do people or your customers need your brand to be.

Jeffro [00:16:29]:
Right. So I’m gonna put you on the spot a little bit for a second. What I like to do sometimes to simplify concepts is talk about a lemonade stand, right, and how it can apply there. So We’ve all seen the stereotypical lemonade stand, you know, lemonade 25¢ or whatever. How would you write a headline That’s better than that for a lemonade stand that’s compelling, makes people, you know, stop and look, and more likely to buy.

Defne Gencler [00:16:58]:
Okay. So I actually just thought of 1. You know, blank lemonade, not too sour, not too sweet. I think that’s the what what I would go with. If I think about complaints I’ve usually had around lemonade Is that it was too much of 1 or the other. So leading with that you know, addressing that pain point that a lot of people might have, in a sort of clever, catchy way, and positioning yourself.

Jeffro [00:17:32]:
Right. And I imagine depending on where your lemon stand is you could also come up with different headlines. Right? If you’re at the beach along the boardwalk, you might have different headlines than if you’re trying to sell lemonade in Anchorage, Alaska. Right.

Defne Gencler [00:17:45]:
Exactly. If I’m trying to go on the 1st page of, Google search rankings for lemonade, Anchorage, Alaska. Maybe that will be my headline.

Jeffro [00:17:55]:
Okay. Exactly. So the point is you can always improve what you’re putting up there. And don’t just do the default. Right? Because I I think on our websites, there’s a lot of business owners just list their products and services, Which is fine. You know? Obviously, people wanna know what you do, but starting with that is usually not the best approach. You kinda want to have that quick connection with something that the client can engage with and say, oh, yeah. That’s me.

Jeffro [00:18:19]:
And get them to keep reading. Right?

Defne Gencler [00:18:23]:
Yeah. I think that ties into another mistake I see A lot of business owners make is they immediately just get into what their product or service is without, like, even creating that initial connection. And then, you know, it’s like the difference between being talked to versus being talked at. So if you make sure to, you know, just take a little bit of space to get in your audience’s shoes and sort of align with where they’re at, you’re just gonna come across a lot more genuine and, like, you actually care about solving their problems.

Jeffro [00:18:59]:
Alright. Well, Daphne, I wish we had more time, but I really appreciate you sharing your insights with us today. This is super important stuff, and I hope a lot of people will be Reevaluating the copy on their websites. Guys, you can check out Daphne’s website at laurel leaf.c0. And if you want Daphne to do an audit of your website homepage, click the link in the description to schedule an audit, and be sure to use code Jeffroe 10 to get 10% off just for listening to the Digital Dominance podcast. Are there any closing thoughts you wanted to leave us with, Daphne?

Defne Gencler [00:19:30]:
Honestly, no. I think this has been a lot of fun. Yeah. As you said, you know, take a look at your copy, see who you’re talking to, and, you know, see if you’re actually talking to them and not at them, and maybe that can already make a difference for your performance.

Jeffro [00:19:47]:
Alright. Well, thanks again, Daphne, for being on the show, and thanks to all of you for listening. I’ll see you in the next episode.